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Post by Mariners GM (A) on Feb 17, 2009 15:16:04 GMT -5
I've seen/heard a lot of debate over the years. Some calling any teams #1 starters their "Ace" (ie: Al Leiter was the Mets ACE for several years throughout the late '90's & early '00's)
Others say that there are only 5-10 true ACE's in the major leagues (CC, Peavy, Oswalt, Johan) while everyone else are just really good pitchers (Burnett, Beckett, Zambrano).
Then there's the crop of youngish guys that have "ACE" stuff, but haven't done it long enough to be considered elite yet (Hamels, Kazmir, King Felix, Lincecum, Bedard)
Then you have the group of guys who don't have "ACE" stuff, but do nothing but win 17 games every year (Buehrle, Cliff Lee, Wang)
Lastly, you have the (Al Leiter guys). Guys with #3 starter stuff, but because of an unexciting rotation, are the #1 guy (Lowe, Francis, Millwood, Meche)
So what is an ace?
I'll tell you what I think, but I'll let a few people respond first.
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Post by oaklandgm (A) on Feb 17, 2009 17:10:11 GMT -5
didn't Cliff Lee spend all of 2007 in AAA? just saying....an ace is someone not on my squad
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2009 17:51:48 GMT -5
To me, the definition of "ace" is two-fold:
1.) If he is already on my roster, and you are trying to trade for him, he is absolutely an ace. In fact, from the scouting reports that I've been reading, it appears that he has all the best characteristics of Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Warran Spahn, and Walter Johnson all wrapped up into one.
2.) If he is not on my roster, but I am trying to trade for him, he is unequivocally not an ace. There's a good chance that his arm is going to fall off and that his defense has been bailing him out big time. You're just lucky I contacted you and that I'm willing to take him off of your hands before you're stuck with dead weight on your roster.
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Post by Yankees GM (A) on Feb 17, 2009 20:12:07 GMT -5
An ace is like the Supreme Courts' definition of pornography.
I'm not sure but I know it when I see it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2009 21:14:01 GMT -5
There's only 1 ace and thats the Ace of Spades! In reality I'd go with your 1st assessment that there are only about 5 aces, however who they are differs each season. |
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Post by oaklandgm (A) on Feb 17, 2009 21:16:54 GMT -5
Johan Santana
CC Sabathia
Roy Halladay
Jake Peavy
Brandon Webb
those are about the only 5 starters that I would consider an ace
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Post by Yankees GM (A) on Feb 17, 2009 21:52:49 GMT -5
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Post by Mariners GM (A) on Feb 18, 2009 7:46:44 GMT -5
hahaha
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Post by NatsGM on Feb 18, 2009 11:57:21 GMT -5
I think of an ace as someone who year in and year out will give you 200 IP.. Who you look on to end losing streaks.. Someone who every time its his day to start, you feel like, if you lose its a letdown.. Someone who can beat you even without his best stuff...
As for stats, its a little different, probably 15 + wins a season, ERA in the low to mid 3s,(10 years ago, was in the mid 2s) 200 IP, consistantly giving you 30+ starts
I guess those are some of the things that I look for in an ace..
As for who the aces are out there, not quite sure.. I have a few in mind...
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Post by Mariners GM (A) on Feb 18, 2009 14:21:03 GMT -5
To me, and Ace is a guy who you want pitching in the big game. I think of the term as "Ace in the hole". That guy you want starting on 3-days rest. The guy who when he goes out, everyone in the field thinks the pitcher has the advantage over the hitter.
If you've ever played baseball as a position player, there's always been pitchers on your team that you either belive will shut the other team down, or pitchers where you stay on your toes cause you know the ball is getting hit hard.
To me, an Ace is someone who has the advantage over 95% of hitters they face. When I watch Johan pitch, I think "Advantage Johan" against just about every one.
When I watch a guy like Carlos Zambrano pitch, I just don't get that same feeling...Maybe it's confidence, swagger, I don't know. But even though Zambrano is a top of the rotation guy, I just don't get that fear factor. I remember waching Johan get a 2-0 lead in the first inning, and turning the game off. My wife asked why, I said the game was over. The Twins won that game against the Mets 6-0. I saved myself 8 innings of hoping for something I knew wouldn't come true.
Then I watch a guy like Zambrano (just using him for an example). He can strike out 11 guys through 6 innings...but I always feel he's only 2-3 bad pitches away from giving up the game. As the opposing team, I still feel like we have a chance.
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Post by Yankees GM (A) on Feb 18, 2009 15:49:09 GMT -5
Zs problem is and has always been, he walks too damn many guys and gets himself in trouble. Theres never been anything wrong with his stuff.
As a Red Sox fan, I watched Matsuzaka through the cracks in my fingers ALL YEAR last year. The guy went 18-3 with a 2.90 ERA last year, one of the top performances in the AL, and he's TERRIFYING to watch. His strand rate was insane.
They both have the ability to allow baserunners w/out letting them score (which is a testament to their stuff more than anything) but it certainly doesn't make them any easier to watch.
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Post by Giants GM (A) on Feb 18, 2009 16:27:11 GMT -5
All i know is that I have two of them in Johan Santana and Brandon Webb.
Even though Webb doesnt give me the same confidence as Johan, i sitll think he can be considered an ace.
If Matsuzaka puts up similar numbers this year, he could be in that category.
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Post by dodgers on Feb 18, 2009 16:42:24 GMT -5
Zs problem is and has always been, he walks too damn many guys and gets himself in trouble. Theres never been anything wrong with his stuff. I hope his sim arm falls off this year. |
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Post by Yankees GM (A) on Feb 18, 2009 16:57:02 GMT -5
Judging by the offers I've gotten, that happened 3 years ago.
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Post by nationals on Feb 18, 2009 18:40:32 GMT -5
a guy who wins the cy young in his first full season
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Post by astrosgm on Feb 18, 2009 20:07:17 GMT -5
Tim Lincecum!I have a small penis
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Post by astrosgm on Feb 19, 2009 17:04:21 GMT -5
I dont see how Beckett isnt an ace?
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Post by Mariners GM (A) on Feb 19, 2009 17:21:22 GMT -5
Beckett is a front-line starter.
28-years old, 89-62 in his career, with an ERA of 3.78, WHIP of 1.22, and just under a K/inning.
Very good numbers. Not dominant, but he's hitting his prime now, and there's no reason to think he'll slow down.
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Post by Yankees GM (A) on Feb 19, 2009 17:24:43 GMT -5
I'm a big Red Sox fan and I like Beckett, although I've heard from more than a few people the guy's a straight up prick. Apart from his playoff success, he's really had only one ace-like year in 2007. ERA+ is a good, quick and dirty way to look at something like this. www.baseball-reference.com/b/beckejo02.shtmlHe's been an above average pitcher most years but, besides the playoffs, more often than not, he's a tease. This is an ace, and an underrated one at that: www.baseball-reference.com/h/hallaro01.shtmlAll in all though, this is a semantic argument. We might as well be arguing about what makes a girl hot. The answer, of course, is Evangeline Lilly: thebiglead.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/evangeline-lilly_01.jpg |
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Post by Yankees GM (A) on Feb 19, 2009 17:25:31 GMT -5
I'd say that an ace is anyone that can post an ERA+ consistently above 120 every year.
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Post by Rockies GM (A) on Feb 19, 2009 21:26:11 GMT -5
Yanks, funny you brought up Doc, I thought of him too. Beckett's a similar pitcher in my mind. Both can get a strikeout if needed, get a fair share of groundballs, and keep solid ERA's.
Halladay's just been consistently better over his career than Josh. That said, Halladay's team never makes the playoffs, so Beckett will be remembered longer for his playoff work.
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Post by Cardinals (A) on Feb 19, 2009 22:15:38 GMT -5
Beckett is so much an ace it is ridiculous. His ratios last year: 9.1 k/9; 1.8 bb/9; 0.96 hr/9.
His ratios in 2007: 9.1 k/9; 1.9 bb/9; 0.80 hr/9.
That is really, really sick. I put Beckett on the same level as Peavy; he doesn't have the ballpark or league benefit Peavy has, and their ratios and FIP are pretty similar. Plus, Beckett comes through in the clutch more consistently.
Damn, why'd I trade him?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2009 22:56:18 GMT -5
Cause you prefer the little boys . . . (prospects) |
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Post by Cardinals (A) on Feb 20, 2009 0:14:01 GMT -5
Sometimes. Depends on the situation. In this other league, I've dealt off a crap load of prospects and youngsters to build up the squad, Tommy Hanson and Chris Carter and Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez etc.
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Post by Mariners GM (A) on Feb 20, 2009 11:59:32 GMT -5
Top Ten Ace Pitchers:
1. Johan
2. Halladay
3. Peavy
4. Sabathia
5. Webb
6. Oswalt
7. Lackey
8. Kazmir
9. Haren
10. Zambrano
Just Missed:
Beckett (reasons mentioned)
Lincecum (not enough innings to qualify)
Hamels (not enough innings to qualify)
King Felix (hasn't gotten there yet)
Chris Young (not an ace)
Burnett (doesn't have the heart of an ace)
Wang (solid, yet unspectacular)
Cliff Lee (Get out of here)
Verlander (not after last year)
Dice-K (walks 10, strands 8, not an ace)
Bedard (A dominant year last year probably gets him top 10, but he was injured and is now 30)
Carpenter (hasn't pitched in 2 years, but an Ace before that)
Guys with ace potential (not in the minors right now):
Volquez
Greinke
Felix
Verlander
Hamels
Lincecum
Cueto
Joba
Phil Hughes
Billingsley
Danks
Shields
Price
Matt Cain
Kershaw
Intentionally not mentioned on any list:
Harden
Twins (Slowey, Baker, insert here..)
Jurrjens
Marlins (Annibal, Johnson, etc)
Carmona
Myers
Francis
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