Defining a "Stud"

[Deleted]

A while back, we had a discussion (it's on page two in the free speech thread) about what exactly an "ace" was.

I think it's time to expand the discussion to the word "stud". A somewhat recent, and somewhat annoying, trend is to post an above average, good, or very good player on a trade block and then to ask for a "stud" something or other in return.

I'm going to pick on Dave Duncan here for a moment. Before I do, I need to qualify that I generally like Dave, find him easy to negotiate with, and he's genuinely fun to talk shop with. I have no grudge with him in particular. He's just the latest culprit, and I hope he takes this all in good fun.

Anyway, according to my GMail, at 7:18 AM, Dave sent out an e-mail putting Kevin Youkilis on a trade block and asking either for a starting pitcher or a "young stud CF".

Who exactly is a young stud CF? More importantly, who is a stud at any position? Rather than develop a list of various criteria, here's my best attempt to list each position.

Feel free to disagree, to destroy, or even, through some miracle, to agree with my assessments. This is almost completely off the top of my head, and entirely subjective, so I'm bound to forget or exclude someone. This list is only for players currently playing. Oh, and they're not ranked in any particular order except for the order I thought of them in. Also, I am not purporting to be an expert, have any special knowledge in baseball talent evaluation, or to claim to be smarter than any other person in this league (the latter should be obvious to just about anyone). This is just a fun little exercise to generate some chatter. End Disclaimer.

Catcher:

Joe Mauer
Matt Wieters
Victor Martinez

Comments: These are the only three I could put on the list. Russell Martin and Brian McCann fell short, and Geovany Soto would have been close if he hadn't been so terribly unlucky on balls in play last season. Wieters gets in more on perceived value than actual performance.

First Base:

Mark Teixeira
Ryan Howard
Albert Pujols
Adrian Gonzalez
Miguel Cabrera
Prince Fielder

Comments: Here's where it gets interesting. I left guys like Kevin Youkilis, Justin Morneau, Carlos Pena, Joey Votto, and Lance Berkman off the list. I think a "stud" is someone who is head and shoulders above the rest. Youk, Morneau, Pena, Votto, and Berkman are all very good, but Tex, Howard, Pujols, Cabrera and Gonzalez are all better. I think Votto makes the leap either this year or next year. Berkman has seen better days. Morneau needs to hit more than 30 HR in a season. Pena should bat above .250. And Youk, he was tough. If I make this list on another day, I probably include him.

Second Base:

Chase Utley
Dustin Pedroia
Nick Punto (kidding)

Comments: Brian Roberts and Ian Kinsler were considered here. Ben Zobrist, if he continues what he did last year will be on the list next year. Same goes for Aaron Hill. Alberto Callaspo has shown some flashes, too.

Third Base:

Alex Rodriguez
Evan Longoria
Chipper Jones
David Wright
Pablo Sandoval (a 3B for now)

Comments: I'm giving Chipper a lifetime achievement award here, and I'm giving David Wright the benefit of the doubt. Just missing the cut were Aramis Ramirez, Michael Young, and maybe one or two more that I just can't recall right now.

Shortstop:

Hanley Ramirez
Derek Jeter
Troy Tulowitzki

Comments: This is one position I have a nagging feeling I'm missing someone. I don't care what anyone says, Jose Reyes isn't a stud SS. Maybe on perceived value alone, but the numbers just don't bear it out. Jeter probably falls into the Chipper Jones Lifetime Achievement Award category.

Outfield:

Matt Holliday
Carlos Beltran
Ryan Braun

Comments: I'm positive this list should be longer. This, obviously, is one of the toughest positions to do. If you break out all three OF positions, you're going to run into some crossover. If you group them together, there's a huge pool of talent to pick from. We have quite a bit very good OFers, but how many stand head and shoulders above the rest? I suppose this is where the discussion of who is a stud and who isn't will be the most valuable and where it gets the most subjective. Is Adam Lind a stud? I know I wanted to put Matt Kemp on the list. How about J.D. Drew? Jason Bay? Justin Upton came painfully close to making the list. Ichiro? Nick Markakis? Grady Sizemore?

Starting Pitcher:

Johan Santana
Zach Greinke
Tim Lincecum
Roy Halladay
Cliff Lee
Dan Haren
CC Sabathia
Felix Hernandez

Comments: Where do you draw the line? Chris Carpenter? Adam Wainwright? Clayton Kershaw? Javy Vazquez? What about Stephen Strasburg? Is he a stud? Yovanni Gallardo? Justin Verlander? And I thought doing the OF was tough. If so many player's are studs, what's the difference between a stud and a very good player?

Relief Pitcher:

Mo Rivera
Joe Nathan
Jonathan Broxton
Joakim Soria
Jonathan Papelbon

Comments: See many of the comments above. Heath Bell is good, so was Francisco Cordero. Huston Street was good too. Are they all studs? Are none of them? And what do you do with K-Rod? Is he still a stud?

I hope this gets some discussion going. Frankly, I needed something else to talk about other than the draft. Maybe this was futile and pointless. Maybe I chose the wrong bone to pick. Who knows...

[astrosgm]

Well, im giving my stud OF award to Adam Jones. Still young like Justin Upton, i can see these players along with Matt Kemp becoming the headline names of the OF to come. What about Andrew McCutchen? I know it is pretty damn early to say but Id have to say we should have a stud prospect list as well. Being a Marlins fan this is going to hurt but by no means is Mike Stanton a stud. (this year at least)
Combined stats for last year(Two levels Single A Adv & Double A)
.255 AVG 129 G 479 AB 122 H 24 2B 28 HR 92 RBI
Compared to his monster season last year this is quite mediocre. But hey im no expert so dont hold me accountable.

What about Tommy Hanson, stud through the minors and lived up to it in the majors? Honorable mention? I think so...

[Padres GM (A)]

To me a "Stud" can be anything, a 17 yearold that hits .300 in full season ball. All the way to David Aardsma was a "Stud" out of the M's bullpen last year.

To me, the players that Jason is describing are "Superstars"!

Justin Upton, Matt Kemp, to me they are heading to "Superstar" land.

The next level to me is "Stars", and all indications show that Jones and McCutchen are on their way there, but for me they have further to go before I'm calling them future "Superstars" than the first 2.

Then you have "All-Star" players, and that could be any slightly above average player that has seen an All-Star game or 2, but just are not a 'household' "Star".

Again, to me, "Stud" is just a random term that could be applied to any category of players one wishes. So everyone mentioned is a "Stud" in one way or another.

[Giants GM (A)]

Wow. So by Jasons list, i have
C Brian McCann who was close to making the list
1B Ryan Howard
2B Dustin Pedroia
SS Troy Tulowitzki
3B Aramis Ramirez who was close to making the list
LF Ryan Braun
CF Ichiro who maybe jason was saying was close to his list
SP Johan Santana
SP Cliff Lee
CL Jonathan Papelbon

What jason, no love for Hunter Pence and Ryan Dempster?

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2010 15:51:21 GMT -5 Giants GM (A) said:

Wow. So by Jasons list, i have
C Brian McCann who was close to making the list
1B Ryan Howard
2B Dustin Pedroia
SS Troy Tulowitzki
3B Aramis Ramirez who was close to making the list
LF Ryan Braun
CF Ichiro who maybe jason was saying was close to his list
SP Johan Santana
SP Cliff Lee
CL Jonathan Papelbon

What jason, no love for Hunter Pence and Ryan Dempster?

Larry, if you're surprised that you have a good team, I don't know what to tell you.

[Deleted]

In my opinion I see a stud being a guy that you know exactly what you're getting from him (in the good way, not the Rey Ordonez 1 HR a year before steroids tore his ACL way), and is constantly in, or in the running for All-Star seasons.

I was listening to the radio today in Hartford, and the local radio (After the Scott Van Pelt show) guy Jason Page was talking about Dawson's numbers in the 80's.

Over the 10 years of the 80's, he hit 250 homers on the dot...that's 25 a year average
Over those 10 years, he knocked in 895 RBI...that's 89.5 a year average
Over those 10 years, he swiped 199 SB's...that's 19.9 a year average

I'm far too lazy to do the math for his average BA those 10 years as well as doubles and other stuff

But I'll aim low on the average and say over 10 years a guy averages .280, 25 HR, 90 RBI and 20 SB that's a stud.

Overall, I see a guy who hits .275+, 15+ HR, 80+ RBI, 70+ Runs and whatever other stats you want (SB, 2B, Ex Defense, BB) as a stud if he can produce that consistently over a certain time frame (say 8 years?).

I simply can't call a guy like Delmon Young as soon as he's drafted a stud...or else I'm setting myself up for making him a bust if he never reaches "stud" status in the pros. He can Jeff Manto the crap out of it in the minors, but if he can't hit in the majors, he's not a stud.

I can't say a guy who had a fantastic year, and was supposed to in his first or second year a stud, because some of the best for one year and may be close to stud status (Francouer? Hinske?) can fizzle or just plain get worse.

As for pitching, I'm too tired to think about it. I'll throw numbers out there that a SP has to put up for 5 seasons or so: 13-6, 3.70 ERA, 1.20 WHIP. I don't know about the pitching though, it's tough. I'm literally throwing up numbers, that's a 65-30 record in 5 years, not bad? Maybe 14-6 which would be a 70-30 record.

[O's GM]

A stud in real baseball is different from a stud in DMB. Ryan Zimmerman is a guaranteed stud in DMB, whereas hes a notch below that in real life. I'd certainly rather have Zim in this game with Zips than A-Rod. In fact, Zim and Longoria are a clear notch above any other 3B, then Wright for age, then A-rod and Sandoval. Not all top-notch players are equal.

Likewise, Hanley is at least 2 wins better than the next best Shortstop, which combined with the fact that hes a decade younger than that 2nd best SS, puts him in his own class as well. Tulo is in his own 2nd tier for his age, and D once he fully recovers, while Jeter is below both, because hes old, and only offers a chance at his level of production for another few years.

Catcher, no one touches Mauer, the only way anyone is in his tier now is the question of how many more seasons does he have at C. I'd say because of relative ages and such, the next is a tier that contains Martinez, martin, mccann soto and wieters as well as Montero, who would be elite right now if there were a better than coinflip chance of staying at C, as opposed to the 10% chance now.

First, Pujols is in his own leauge. Behind him A-Gonz for age. Pena is in the third tier too, with numbers as good as A-Gonz against tougher competition, hes just older. Also in this tier, all the guys listed and Derek Lee, who has had two monster seasons in the past five and two very good ones.

Second base is Utley again in his own class between O and D. Pedroia is an easy second, but not much seperates him from Zobrist right now when you take all the D metrics into account. Kinsler can easily slip back in with a bounce-back year.

Centerfield has Beltran and Sizemore. Beltran is the clear production leader when healthy, Sizemore is the age candidate. In the tier below that you have a bunch of guys like McCutchen, Gutierrez. Below that you have a mix of solid regulars and young upside guys with decent D, group like Fowler, Victorino, Ross, Maybin.

Corner OF has not one single player who distances himself from the pack. You have a lot of excellent bats with average D, Braun first because of youth, then Holliday. Then you have guys with very good bats or good bats and extreme youth, like Upton, Drew, Ichiro, Stanton, DeJesus only in DMB, Crawford maybe Choo, Lind if I can recall his D. Then you have a class of superb bats up there with Braun/Holliday who give it mostly back with D in DMB, like Manny, Bay and Dunn. As DH's they'd all be head and shoulders above Ortiz.

Predicting pitchers is mostly folly since there is such a high rate of attrition. You can basically just look at past results and the next years projection and see who stands out. Harden, Lee, Sabathia, Lincecum, Haren, Halladay, Grienke, Hernandez Vasquez. Also efficient pitchers should not be overlooked, they will work deeper into games than K&BB pitchers in DMB.

Pen arms, doesn't matter if they set up or close, just end results. Broxton is probably now in his own class for youth and numbers. Then a ton of guys like Mariano, Wagner, Soria, Papelbon (who would have been with Broxton but has slipped), Street. Then there is the tier of guys who project well off of anywhere from 2-3 good to great seasons but who knows if they will keep it up long term like Marmol, Aardsma, Bell, Mike Adams, Romo Gregerson and a ton of guys I'm forgetting.

[Yankees GM (A)]

There was and will only ever be one Studd.




edit: changed "I" to "there"

[O's GM]

Do we really need latent homo-erotic photos of 80's wrestlers called "Big" Studd in here?

[Yankees GM (A)]

This is a thread where a bunch of dudes are trying to define what a stud is......

[oaklandgm (A)]

the final answer to "what is a stud?"

gary matthews jr

[astrosgm]

Jan 7, 2010 21:40:44 GMT -5 oaklandgm (A) said:

the final answer to "what is a stud?"

gary matthews jr

your really trying to get rid of him, every thread my friend Sarge Light Jr. makes his way into the topic.

[Yankees GM (A)]

Gary Matthews Jr. once scissor kicked Angela Landsbury

[oaklandgm (A)]

Gary Matthews Jr. knows where the beef is

[Deleted]

I hate to say it, but both Larry is looking for a LH OF...somehow Sarge's name should have been seen in Approve Trades...unless he's so good he can't be traded?

[Giants GM (A)]

Id take him

[oaklandgm (A)]

He would automatically be your best player and your top prospect